#9 Thomas Sandberg: Laughing at life expectancy statistics

Dr. Will Falconer: Welcome, everyone, this is the Vital Animal Podcast. I'm Dr. Will Falconer and it is my great pleasure to introduce you to my guest today, who is an animal naturopath, Tom Sandberg. Welcome, Tom.

Thomas Sandberg: Thank you, thanks for having me.

Dr. Will Falconer: My pleasure, I am really excited about some of the work you're doing, Tom. The place I'd like to start with you is to describe this longevity study for people who may not have heard about it.

Thomas Sandberg: Yes, that's something I started back in 2000, and what prompted it is just I wanted to see if I could get my Danes to live longer than six to eight years, which is normal lifespan on giant breeds. So that's sort of how I started it and little by little other people got interested in it. Then I ask them, “Would you want to be a part of a little pilot thing I'm doing, it's not serious, just report back to me”. So I managed to get about 80 dogs, well I had over 80 but end of the study I ended up with 80 dogs, over a period of 15 years. So that was like the pre-study of just sort of…That actually started during I am going to make sure I'm doing the right thing here and you know, I'm not killing my dogs, I'm a [Inaudible 1:25- 26]. Because everybody told me I'm going to kill my dogs. I didn't think I would because I studied carnivores and the digestive system of carnivores and dogs for the prior year to that so I knew raw food will be the way to go.

So everything I see, it was statistics and everything and based on kibble fed dogs, because at that point back in 2000, I didn't know anybody feeding raw food. So when I started that, I think, “God I might be onto something”, but had no clue. On a couple of forums, like Great Dane forums and things like that, I mentioned that I was feeding raw, wondered if anyone else did it and there was almost nobody. Little by little people join on the forums and I find actually a raw food, raw feeding forum, and way back then I can't remember what is called, I don’t know if it’s around anymore. So I joined that, then I proposed that, Somebody want to do this little study with me? and then that's how I got the others to join too. So there were 80 dogs…

Dr. Will Falconer: So the variable is taking them off the Kibble and putting them on Raw?

Thomas Sandberg: Yes, that was it, so they only accepted the raw fed dogs, but raw…well the back then BARF was the biggest thing, with the meats and vegetables and things like that, that was the biggest diet. I started on that too and within six months, I could not get one of my Danes to have a regular stool. Some people suggest that I should lower the plant material put in there or other things. So eventually ended up taking it all out and then some they had perfect stools. Actually the wakeup call on that was when I one day just looking at my dog's poop and I saw this piece of grass in there that I know he has been eaten a day before, I say, “How can I”. Okay so the dense bones because I've had bones and that all this old runny poop by nature a little piece of green grass in the middle of it.

So that's survived and so I figured out they can’t even digest a piece of grass then why I'm feeding these things and then just took a leap and cut the whole vegetables out. Then suddenly everything got perfect. I had to go down on the bones a little bit because it started getting this super white poops, so then I go down on the bones and then I… There's another thing I figured out during this that the variation of bones, goes from almost like 10 to 20% on some dogs to at least regulate that firmness on the stool. So it's not you know, the firmness is 80:10:10 with a 80% meat, 10% organ meat and 10% bones and I think that is not set in stone either, they are variations in there. I think that 10% organ meats is pretty close, I stick around that. I am trying to have more than one of course organ meat. So I do, unfortunately when I leave I can get two, three different organ meats.

Dr. Will Falconer: So we're 20 years into this study now and what have your findings showed you?

Thomas Sandberg: Well after these 80 dogs, and something I never thought was anything with diseases or anything like that, I didn't think about that. I was just focused on how many years they will live. The group of the other dogs that joined during this time, so many about 30, 40 were giant breeds and the rest of them was small. It's really tough to get these giant breeds to join for some reason, and then these definitely… What I notice then, because they reported into me about the beginning I had monthly that wanted to report monthly that didn't happen. Then I did every six months and I got more to do that and eventually just went every year. I had a form they filled out and they kind of reported the diseases and the things and kind of the health condition of the dog. And I definitely noted that there was like the most boring update ever, and they still are. Because they are, “Oh, everything's fine, everything's fine, nothing wrong, nothing wrong”. Then they got older, they got stiffness and things like that, joint issues and things like that came into them too. But half of them were still… no more than half of them were still vaccinating and doing flea tick and all that. I didn't get involved in any of that, the intelligence stuff or nothing. So the study is, you know, there's so many variables in this thing that affect the results, but I had a big feel… like when I was studying this thing and looking at the results, I definitely saw much, much healthier dogs. They're [Inaudible 6:29] even when they were vaccinated or did these other things, so anything from like a 50 to 100%. Because my Danes live to their 13 and 14, the data that’s close to almost doubling the lifespan on some of these things. So getting close to that, that was my first goal, is to double their lifespan on that giant breeds, so that’s some sort of one thing I had in my mind.

Our goal now is to see how we can get dogs to at least live into their 20s and I think that shouldn't be any problem if you do all the right things. And cats, I do cats, do add cats to my study and I want those to live at least into their 30s and longer. We have dogs now living into the 20s in Australia, farm dogs there, quite late 20s. Rodney documented one dog, I can’t remember the name of the dog, was over 30 years old, living on the farm.

Dr. Will Falconer: Wow, wow.

Thomas Sandberg: So and I know that and I sort of now starting to see the reason why dogs live long, certain dogs live longer than definitely trends in my study, and ready to go out and you know, say this, anything formative. But I'm just now at this point in the middle of my study just looking for trends. Because all the way up to 2015, they were only 80, that's when I decided to start adding more dogs based on the result from the 80 dogs because there's so significant. Help these dogs, you know, so little diseases and the biggest one that I never even thought of when I started was cancer. Only one of those 80 dogs got cancer and that was too crazy to even mention. Because in my opinion, our 60 70% of dogs get cancer, I think it's even higher, because not everybody reporting these things, especially the kibble fed dogs. So then I got so interested in that, so I say, “Okay, in order to have some weight behind my study, I need to increase the amount of participants”.

So that's when I started to go out and recruit raw fed dogs in different places on the internet. Because I wanted in 2015, my goal was to get thousand dogs into my study and 2/300 cats at that point. Then that took me a year, two years almost, so for 2016 to 2017 I added those thousands dogs. So around 2017, I said, “Gosh I got to get this into a mega study”. So then I decided okay, I'm going to go for 10,000 dogs, I still have 15, 20 years to do this thing. So that's where my goal is now, I don't know if I am going to get there because you know, it can't keep them all. Some falling off, just lose contact with them, you know they…

Dr. Will Falconer: Sure.

Thomas Sandberg: So my goal now is at least still end up with 5000 lifetime study that I actually have the whole life history, health history of 5,000 dogs. I think that’s still going to be very powerful and get at least maybe 1000 cats. My goal is still 10,000 dogs and 5000 cats that's my goal, that's what I'm shooting for. But I think it's going to be much easier when I get to the point where it can talk and if maybe talk about a little later, my rescue and rehab center. So that there is three phases in my study. Phase One was that initial 80 dogs study, then phase two is, now that will go on forever, until the end of the study. Phase two is to keep adding dogs into my study. Phase three is to open a rescue and rehab center, a holistic one based on all the modalities that I had developed over this last 20 years. Then that's going to be a center where I actually show everything I'm doing day by day. We will rescue a pet, I will prefer to take them from a shelter. So I want to take dogs that are scheduled for euthanasia, because health issues, nobody wants to adopt them. And then they don't have the money, funds to adopt, so I want to take these dogs. Then I will record and document every single day and everything I do with them. Show people what I do, food advice, the type of supplements and some things like that, so people can do the same.

Dr. Will Falconer: Beautiful and those are the most challenging dogs.

Thomas Sandberg: They are, and many of them are like three, four or five years old, because they'd be coming from places where they're being completely mishandled. Then never been out, maybe some of these dogs haven’t been fed for days and weeks and things like that. Nobody wants to adopt that and facing thousands of thousands of dollars to vet bill. Well some do, some do, but most of them will be euthanized, even in no kill shelters. So even though you should have, I call them no kill, there are that certain percentage in there that also are killed. But it's not the killing them for sort of humane reason. So they don't call it killing, there’s more like I relieve them from, you know, their misery.

Dr. Will Falconer: So I definitely want to hear more about that before we leave today. What I want to be clear for people who are listening on is phase two, which you're in now. You've got a large number of dogs and your data is coming from the owners of these dogs who give you regular reports as to health status and that sort of thing.

Thomas Sandberg: Yes, once a month or once a year, I would send out a reminder to all the participants in my study to fill out the form, I have a specific form. Initially, there's also a form and during study, they will fill out some basic information. I used to have that really big, like ask for everything, people just gave up in the middle of the form and just you know, “This is too much, I don’t have time for this”. I had to shorten that down just to get them in there. So get basic information, the dog, the breed, age, don't ask about anything about vaccination. Because people get very skeptical, you know, “Okay, what is he going to do with that information?” and they don't even know me. So I just do the regular you know what kind of food their feeding, what type of raw food their feeding? Are they pre-made, make it themselves? So the basic kind of question for me to put them in a specific category in my study.

Then I asked if they have some, and this is the most beautiful part for me that in the study. I asked if they can explain why they feed raw, if they had some sort of experience that gave them a reason to switch to a raw food diet. These are the stories that keep me going, because some of these stories are absolutely heartbreaking, you know, the dogs had been sick for years and years and years. They are going through allopathic type of treatments with drugs, steroids, and antibiotics and on and off, on and off and other things added into it and nothing helps. Dogs got worse and worse and worse and they got so frustrated and at one point they go and do their own research. Then they find raw feeding things and some jump into that. Then sometimes within weeks and definitely within months, they have a new dog.

Dr. Will Falconer: Wow.

Thomas Sandberg: And if people interested to see these stories I have 400 of them on my Instagram page. Because I take the ones that brings me to tears sometimes, reading these things because I know… The good thing of doing what you and I do is we know we are on the side of truth, you know, that's my biggest motivator. I know I’m on the side of truth, compared to what the kibble companies, the veterinarians, not the things on the allopathic side. Honestly they're not on the side of truth, I know I am , I know what I'm doing, what I'm teaching, what I'm promoting works. Because I've seen it so many times and I think I'm in extremely unique situation. Having all these animals into my study, because every single one that I read, everything is someone that I document myself, nobody else is doing it.

So I get this insight that nobody else has and also these updates, I probably didn't complete that about updates. But the form, on the initial is a short one, the form on the updates are much, much longer. I start asking about vaccination, I ask if they take it, when they started vaccinating. What they are vaccinated against? How often they vaccinate? How often they walk the dogs, how long they walk the dogs? How many times a week they walk the dogs. Specifically what they feed, and any other thing that I feel have an impact on the longevity. That’s much easier for them to fill that out after a year if they stuck with my study. Because they get to know me, they know I'm serious about this thing, I'm not going to take this anywhere. No names, no nothing is going to ever come out, unless they want to do it, so they feel safe. So then it's much easier to ask those type of questions, so that’s a value right there.

Dr. Will Falconer: Yeah, yeah, brilliant.

Thomas Sandberg: So then that works much better and so I get a lot of information. Every year I update a little bit if there is certain things I want to know about. I get very into allergies in raw fed dogs, because that happens too. I mean everybody think okay I am feeding raw food diet and then 80% of the time with allergies will disappear. Because the body will get into a mode of healing itself and allergies are just signs of an imbalance somewhere, you don't really know exactly where it is often hard to find out. But like you and I, we see symptoms and we use symptoms to go to the cause, but in most cases, it's just to feed them raw food diet and everything is okay.

Dr. Will Falconer: So you're saying 80% of them, if they've switched to raw, they lose their allergies?

Thomas Sandberg: Absolutely, even higher, but there is a small percentage there that doesn't do it. Well, it is a little tricky thing that happens after feed raw, that can throw people off. You get this healing crisis …, you know the reaction from the body starting to produce and heal itself. And purge toxins or chemicals and can’t really do that through the natural pathway. So some of these going to come through the skin and it's going to create some itchiness and allergy type symptoms. Some people misunderstand that and you know, go to the vet clinic and actually get back on some steroids and antibiotics. But with most raw feeders, I'm pretty much aware of this, when they consult with me, I'll be talking about switching. If you have any type of reaction that seems like that is some sort of, we can call it our …reaction just tried to ride it out. It usually disappears within weeks, a few weeks, maybe even shorter than that. Then you have a small percentage 10 maybe 20% 10% less than that can they can't get rid of the allergies and those are tricky ones. But then again, this and since I had so many of them, that's a nutritional thing that's in the minerals more than anything.

So I've seen many of these by just adding some trace minerals, especially like MSM, to sulfur, zinc and iodine. Iodine is one of these miracle things that I've seen too many times now that I can't ignore it, and that’s just one… Because there is no iodine anywhere in the food anymore, there is no sulfur in the food anymore. So all these minerals, which is so important for the body to communicate, the cell communication done through, you know they use minerals. And if you are deficient in minerals, that’s hard to obtain homeostasis, in my opinion. It is just, you know, when you see things over and over and over again, you start, “Okay, that works, that works again”.

Dr. Will Falconer: That is the beauty of what you're doing Tom, that’s so many animals there.

Thomas Sandberg: Yeah and I didn't realize that in the beginning but when I suggesting… The good thing about natural things, you know, can almost never go wrong. You can't do any damage unless you load up with massive amounts of one thing. But still, in my opinion, the body will take what it needs, if it doesn't need it, ignores it and just get rid of it. Store a little bit for organ reserves if they need that, because that's the way and carnivores doing it every single day, so that's still in them.

Dr. Will Falconer: Exactly.

Thomas Sandberg: I think the big problem is that we don't look at dogs as who they really are. You look at them as a pet, you know, or almost like a child, a human. You humanized them too much and forget that inside that little animal, little cute thing you have, whatever you have is a wolf. Has the digestive system of a carnivore, something that kills and eat things alive.

Dr. Will Falconer: Right.

Thomas Sandberg: That’s what they're waiting for, that type of food, so we need to mimic that more so I think that’s one of the….yeah, they are good at humanizing.

Dr. Will Falconer: You and I share a common goal, which is that we are both really focused on preventing these animals from getting chronically ill.

Thomas Sandberg: Absolutely.

Dr. Will Falconer: Diet is a big key to that. In my work I see vaccines having a huge role in that, but preventing it is so important versus trying to fix it after the fact. I suspect as a naturopath you probably have ways of fixing it that we can perhaps have a whole episode on. But if you had to name two impediments that people kind of come up against a wall when they say, “Okay, I understand. You know, Sandberg says raw food is the best and he's in there with a bunch of other people saying the same thing. I just get stuck at a couple of points and I can't go any further,” what are those typically?

Thomas Sandberg: Well the fear is there and the fear is based on not enough knowledge. I mean, the number one thing is always, always the food. The need to feed the right food or have any hope of creating homeostasis. I have a dog that can prevent, live long and also have a resistant against diseases, viruses, bacteria and those things, they have to feed the raw food diet. The fear of that is because the veterinarian and other people going to say, “No, that's the worst thing you can do”, not the worst thing but it is dangerous though, bacteria and all that could kill your dog, especially a sick dog. This is the crazy part, the sicker the dog is, the more he's going to benefit from a raw food diet and they don’t accept that.

Dogs with cancer, I see a lot of dogs with cancer, not see but I consult with them. And they are always taught never, don't touch, because there are smart enough to know that the immune system is compromised. In dogs with cancer, they know that, that's really why you get cancer because the body can no longer protect the dog or the cells from multiplying. There are mechanism in a healthy dogs, they will have cancer cells and their mechanism that are in place there to lead the cells into apoptosis. When the immune system get enough compromised, these cells are free to, just to make it very simple, they’re free to multiply. So they know that the immune system is a big factor in dogs with any type of chronic diseases. So they say, “Oh no, don't feed them raw food diet because the bacteria and all that and that really could kill the dog”. And in that case I never ever, and I don't need now for like with cancer and I have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of cases I've documented.

I have never ever seen a dog survive cancer on kibble. I've seen many many survive cancer on raw food or at least extend their life way past what they were predicted. They get that time for say three to six months if you do this and if you do that. You give them six months of chemo, you can get into maybe a year you get all these predictions. And everyone that beats those predictions or even beat cancer completely, I have cases like that many of those they all fed them raw food diet. Which makes sense because you cannot… All about beating cancer is restoring immune system because the immune system eventually is what is going to keep the cancer from coming back. You can kill cancer cells with different type of natural, there’s a lot of interesting, very effective natural products out there that would kill cancer cells. But eventually the immune system will want to take over and prevent them from coming back and that cannot happen on the kibble food diet. In my opinion and from my experience and all that so raw food is so important. By the way we got totally off track because now I remember what you asked me, about fear.

The fear is bacteria is one and balance is number two, and now I think actually balance is number one now because there's so much riding on it on the internet. You know, I don't go on internet a lot now with these forums and I don't participate in anything anymore. I have my own private network where I do that, but the Facebook and those things. But I know because I get tagged in many posts and they asked me to give my input because they know my feeling of balance. Then they want me to explain it to them and then I think I share that…

Dr. Will Falconer: So let’s take each of those in turn, Tom.

Thomas Sandberg: Yes.

Dr. Will Falconer: Balance and bacteria, what are the big impediments in people's minds about that? How do we get around that?

Thomas Sandberg: Well, that for us sort of like trust with the same balance, in my opinion, and from what I seen can never happen from the outside. You cannot create a balanced diet, because every dog, everybody, every cat, anything that you feed are different. There's no standard type that says they didn't need this much of this and this and this. Yes there are things out there that say that your dog need this much E or D or B or whatever they are. Also the minerals, which is made up at one point back in time and they put it definitely on the back of the kibble bag, you see them there. So people are used to and thinking that that is a balanced diet but maybe they get to a point where then probably not the best diet that probably raw might be better. But how do I know to balance it? Because I knew that the kibble and you put it in the bowl, and that's the balanced meal, that might not be the best but it was balanced.

Dr. Will Falconer: The scientists all know what they're doing, right? That's the assumption.

Thomas Sandberg: Yes. So what I'm saying is that what you need to get focused on is variety. The body needs certain, if you can get up to four or five proteins, which eventually will get, you don't need to start with it. You can start with one protein, you can give them chicken for a month, give them chicken for two months and you'd still do much, much better than kibble, so that's no issue we can get into that. But most people that actually start and do that this if you “Okay, that sounds good”, and I have proof of that. I actually had a just recently there was a dog that joined my study and the previous dog she had was chicken only, and lived till it was 17 years old in Florida somewhere.

Dr. Will Falconer: Wow.

Thomas Sandberg: Only chicken, never fed nothing else but fed the whole chicken.

Dr. Will Falconer: Aha, Aha.

Thomas Sandberg: So there's a lot of good things in there so didn't even fit all the proteins but I don't recommend that. But what I noticed on this okay I can start with chicken that sounds okay. Then within days they say, “Can I can add something else, he loves the chicken he do so well”. I see all these little poop, they drink much less water, all this like immediate benefit that you will see. Then they start asking, “Can I add this one”, so that happens automatically. I never seen anybody feed chicken for more than maybe two or three weeks. They always want to add in other things. And like we mentioned before, when somebody is terrified, but get to the point where they actually feed a raw food meal, like a raw meal to the dog and then see the dog alive the day after, it’s like a relief. Okay, the dog survived that, and that encourage them to do a little bit more and that happens a lot.

I mean, I don't think like that drastically, but it's just that initial fear if you can get over that. Because they looking at the food and it looks so different, then its raw and there might be some chicken bones in there or chicken wing. “Oh my gosh, my dog's going to you know, choke on this or what's going to happen?” And they stand there terrified and see the dog maybe wolf it in and looking up and say, “Thank you, finally you figured it out”, with that look on their face. Because that's why I rescued Danes before and took one in that was three years or four years old and horrible, horrible shape. Even the vet that went over the dog before had rescued him from it was on the east coast and just whispered to me, “Why do you want to rescue this one, he has more like six months left, max. Four years old, took him home, put a raw meat in his bowl, this piece of raw meat. Bolted down that I never ever seen dogs do and looked at me and I swear he thought that, “Finally thank you for rescuing me you know what I wanted”. The crazy part is that dog lived until it was 13 years old.

Dr. Will Falconer: Wow.

Thomas Sandberg: He was a complete mess, couldn't run at all, his joints were so stiff. All his teeth were dark brown, smelled so bad, like his breath was horrible. He had a detox effect from the raw food that I never seen on a dog. Lost hair, all kinds of things oozing out and yeasty air that I've never seen on any dog. He has been on the cheapest kibble, but I didn't know anything about its history because it was like an emergency rescued. Then the rescuers owners come back and say, “You know this dog has been locked up in a garage and its entire life has never been outside”. Fed it the cheapest kibble, couldn't walk on gravel, his paws was like inside couldn't walk anywhere, had to walk on grass. Then slowly I got him off on trails in the woods and stuff and it took me forever to rehab that dog, but 13 years.

Dr. Will Falconer: Wow.

Thomas Sandberg: So it can be done, it can be done.

Dr. Will Falconer: Yes.

Thomas Sandberg: So it's never too late to set dog on the road.

Dr. Will Falconer: I love it.

Thomas Sandberg: Even if he has one day left, give the last meal raw, he will enjoy it. I mean, that's kind of a drastic type of …I have seen dogs 13, 14 years which were raw food diet and they only say, “Oh it’s like is seven eight years again”.

Dr. Will Falconer: Ah, aha, aha, yeah, I love that, it's never too late, that’s brilliant.

Thomas Sandberg: Never too late.

Dr. Will Falconer: And your data tell you that.

Thomas Sandberg: Absolutely and I get them all the time, I get question, “Oh I have an eight or nine year old dog who can barely walk, it can't run anymore, can I switch to raw food right now?” “Please, today, switch now, hang up the phone go on and feed raw food.”

Dr. Will Falconer: Yes, yes.

Thomas Sandberg: Now, and what we do because the immediate gratification of a raw food diet, is there right away? I mean, within days, you can see a difference. We talked about the poop but also the water, they drink so much less water. That's another thing that, you know, they freak out about, “Oh my gosh, he doesn't drink any water, he haven't touched the water for 3 days”. Well, that's normal, that's 70% water in raw meat. So you do the opposite of what you did with kibble. Kibble rob the body from water is sucks it up and produce these giant poops and raw does the opposite, provide water. So my Danes never drink water in the winter ever.

Dr. Will Falconer: Aha.

Thomas Sandberg: In the summer they drink because they often get hot and stuff, but never ever. I don't even put water out but they never drink it. He lives, no one thinks when there is snow but it's like kids, kids eat snow, dogs eats snow.

Dr. Will Falconer: So if we had to encapsulate your thoughts on balance, I know, it could be an episode all in its own. But could we safely say that balance comes from variety of good ingredients over time?

Thomas Sandberg: Yes, so in my…just to get lucky in a short thing just tried to get the point where you feed four different organ meats, I mean, proteins, two or three different organ meats. Then every two or three days, you can add an egg in there, that in itself is a really, really good meal. Then I do suggest adding minerals and other things like a supplement on top of it, because the food you know, we know what we've done to the soil and kind of pretty much ruin that. Things like sulfur and other things, so I'm not really into soil anymore. So that's one of the thing and magnesium and those things that I'd suggest to add in. But just starting with that is like really, really good meal, because then the body will take what it needs. Because what I try to explain to people, balance happen from within, it doesn't happen from outside. The body will take what it needs, the cells are sitting there screaming for things and if it is available, it will take it.

Dr. Will Falconer: Yes.

Thomas Sandberg: If there are things in the food, the body does what it needs, it either gets rid of it or some of that gets stored as organ reserves. Because in the wild dog doesn't eat or carnivores doesn’t eat every day, so they need reserves. A dog and go without food for two, three weeks. I mean, it still survives as long as it gets water.

Dr. Will Falconer: Yes, yes and so and we've always got the wolf to fall back on as a model, don't we? They're not eating every meal balanced.

Thomas Sandberg: No, no, but I want to see if we can balance over… many eat balanced every day, they give them a balance. I'd say like, give them three, four or five different proteins every day and they put in organ meats and stuff, others do it over a week. In my mind, it's easier for me to do everything every day, I just give four or five different things which probably wouldn't happen in nature. But the key for me is that the nutrients enter the body. However, these nutrients get into the body that the body needs to stay healthy. I don't think that matters a lot, how you feed it get into the body, but I'm totally fine with doing one meat group per day. Because over time, like you said over in, you know, at least a week or so it will balance out. The same I do with supplements, I don't supplement every day. With supplements, I get half of what's recommended and then I give it every other day and on weekends I don't supplement at all. Because it allows the body to kind of be a little depleted of things and then asking for things and have that function of being able to “Hey, I need this. I need this”, before it gets critical. So if you don't… and that's saved you a lot money in supplements.

Dr. Will Falconer: Yes, so if we can drive a nail into this or a spike into this myth of every meal has to be balanced. I think we've just done that we don't see that in nature and our dogs are built on a natural model, they're very closely related to the wolf. We don't have to be swayed by the big food companies that say, “We've got it on the label, we know what we're doing and you as a pet owner you couldn't possibly match what we're doing”. Right? That's a myth.

Thomas Sandberg: Absolutely, you will never know what your dog needs nutrition wise. To create a balanced meal is impossible. Then again, the meats are different, the meat in Indiana, the meat from Florida can be totally different than the meat in Texas when it comes to nutrients. And they say that this piece of meat have this many type of micronutrients and they think, who knows that you have to test every single meat and to know that before you feel it, and you can’t do that, that's impossible.

Dr. Will Falconer: Individuality I think is a key in my homeopathic work and it is in naturopathic as well, it makes so much sense to me. So lets talk about the other…

Thomas Sandberg: .The bacteria, you want me to mention the bacteria thing?

Dr. Will Falconer: Yes, please.

Thomas Sandberg: Well yes, of course, that is well, it's, I think at least come down to number two but if you go to your veterinarian that's definitely number one. So in my opinion, because of the acidic environment in the digestive system, things like that, but it starts with the mucous system. Which is so relevant now with vaccines and all that stuff you need to be vaccinated through the mucous system. Through the nose and the eyes and things like that so the virus and bacteria can’t come in. And the mucous system in the beginning there would sort of encapsulate some of them, would kind of send signals to the body “Hey, something really bad is coming down and prepare yourself for that”. So there is a system for things to enter into the digestive system and it should go through the mouth, but in most cases, most bacteria will be taken care of by the acidic environment in the stomach. But probably the biggest thing is the speed of the whole thing, that is super fast in a carnivore and the reason for that is that these bacteria and other things will have a hard time colonizing. I kind of compare it to a train, that you don't want to jump off a fast train if you can't… even if you do you can’t colonize in the sense because the system is so fast.

Another thing is that it's also sensitive in if, and we all seen dogs have this, what they called it, “cannon butts" and things like that. If they have something bad in the system they have a way of either they can you know throw it up or they can create this pretty impressive diarrhea, really speed up the system. So things like that it's hard for bacteria to get infest, especially a healthy body like a carnivore or animal like a raw fed animals that have been okay for quite a while. They get diarrhea, my dogs get diarrhea but it's over in a day.

Dr. Will Falconer: Aha, aha.

Thomas Sandberg: When you, well that's the picking up bacteria you know some bacteria are definitely going to create a diarrhea. I think also there is a reaction from the digestive system to create diarrhea to get rid of these bacteria fast.

Dr. Will Falconer: Sure.

Thomas Sandberg: So it's not the bad thing you can tell the dog is not hurting from it's not like it’s suffering like we do we have a sort of a diarrhea we don't feel so good. I don't think dogs have the same type of feeling bad, but they're also better at you know, recovering any type of suffering anyway because genetically they don't want to show weakness.

Dr. Will Falconer: Yes, yes.

Thomas Sandberg: So there is an interesting study out there and I think you can find it with your search. When they tested salmonella, was it called salmonella, I think it was salmonella, in how long it will stay in the poop. So they fed dogs with contaminated meat or food that had salmonella, so that when they poop they were testing that poop. How long does that salmonella live and that just sort of like a public sort of telling people if you have dogs and the poops, how long would that salmonella if you don't clean it up? There was just interest to see how long salmonella can survive in poop in dogs.

So they fed them contaminated salmonella and it went on and on which we read the study, there’s all these details you know how the papers are scientific papers. Then on the web, like in the last very, very last end they say, “Oh by the way, none of the dogs got affected or got sick from the salmonella. Just a little side note which is like pretty much the biggest thing of the whole study, “Hey you feeding it, you screaming about the traces of salmonella in some you know the recall from kibble and things like that. Don't recall millions or thousands or whatever you do, just for a little bit will never affect the dog”.

Dr. Will Falconer: Yes.

Thomas Sandberg: So in that study, you know, they showed that and it was it was like, “Oh my gosh, I've had all these dogs with this contaminated meat” and I was just like, “no, no, none of the dogs get sick”. And it was like 30, 40 dogs on different breeds and everything.

Dr. Will Falconer: Beautiful. So yeah, the relatives would eat carrion in a minute, wouldn't they?

Thomas Sandberg: Yes.

Dr. Will Falconer: I mean, and if the food was scarce and carrion was there, a wolf would dive in. And a dog who is on its own would do the same and the worst case would be a brief diarrhea to shoot out the bad guys if they needed it.

Thomas Sandberg: Yes and then most of it is killed on the way out and the acidic in the stomach pretty much good for killing bacteria or at least preventing it from going anywhere. But, oh there was something I want to mention that I thought it was important and now it escape my mind. It might come back to me.

Dr. Will Falconer: So one of the things you said that struck me was, it's almost impossible to screw up a raw diet short term.

Thomas Sandberg: Yes.

Dr. Will Falconer: Would you say a few words about that, maybe there’s even a figure.

Thomas Sandberg: Good to think about what we are doing now. When you have a kibble fed dog you are feeding, and this is my opinion of course, and everything thing I said so far is my opinion. I don't have a little proof or science behind it and just from my study, I see this over and over again. But when you think about kibble, for you and I know about kibble is not very nice, you know, it's not the best food. So then you remove something that's not good, then you replace that with something is really good, which is actually the digestive system is designed for. So going from feeding something digestive system is not designed for to something that is, it is designed for you. So you remove the bad and replace it with the good, so you have that double effect. That's why you see these really, really fast, incredible results and I think that is really hard to do with a human. Because human has so much more variety, it's actually really easy to feed a dog when you think about it, because this is a pure carnivore.

Veterinarians, they call them omnivores, but in my world they are carnivores and they have very specific diets, just raw meat and bones. They use to killing animal and feed that to them, that's pretty much the diet. So it's not that and when you feed that, that is such an incredible good food for the digestive system. That's what they're designed for, from nature, and then you took out the junk. So that's why you see this really, really, really fast and quick results in my opinion. And they get their immune system back on line, the immune system getting to homeostasis, which is balance. Then that can take care of making the body heal itself, so it is all about creating an environment where you can get the body to heal itself.

Dr. Will Falconer: Yes, it's a double whammy, you take away bad stuff and add something genetically expected and good.

Thomas Sandberg: I think that's why we see such incredible results, that's why they don't see this result. If you do start feeding good supplements and add things to a kibble fed, you don't see the same results. You can start adding good things into a kibble diet, like talking about adding an egg in there, which is better than not doing it for sure. But if you add an egg to a raw food diet you get even better effect. Because the body doesn't have to fight or struggle with the stuff that he really not designed for. Loves the egg but I mean the bottom line there's going to be much better if there is a raw food diet adding that egg to.

Dr. Will Falconer: So in studying all these dogs, Tom, let's give the listeners some encouragement to say, how long before you see some results when these dogs switch from a kibble to a raw diet?

Thomas Sandberg: Oh, some see results and see things in a day or two you see. I mean see it of course on the poop, is the first thing you see. Then you see on the water, they drinking the water, but within a week or two, you start seeing, the fur looks a little shinier, the bad breath is not there anymore. The vitality in the eye, like, you know, they look more alert, they look more present. They sort of move different, they seem like they sleep better, they seem like they… and in many cases, if you have a really hyper dog, they start seeming calmer. Which is opposite of what many think and it has a mental effect too. So now you see that a lot like “Oh my God, my dog used to be crazy, go nuts after each meal. Now he is just calm and wants to lay down because they feel full and they don't start begging me for more food an hour later, like they often do on kibble”.

I am also a big advocate, we should mention that maybe, of feeding once a day. Yeah, I'm a big, big and also fast once a week, I'm a big believer in that is really good because if you feed once a day, you create sort of a little mini fast. I think that's extremely healthy for the body and I think we feed a raw food diet and do that, right, there's quite a bit of fat in there. So I think these dogs drift in and out of ketosis even over a period of 24 hours. So if you do that, that is to me very healing. Ketosis or fast induced ketosis, I think is extremely healthy. Diet, induced ketosis will be so incredible popular now that they use it, I use it for cancer. Like the first defense, sort of when they get a cancer dog, I like to put them into ketosis, but not more than a week max, a week, not anything longer. A ketogenic diet on the dog is highly, highly, unnatural and I think you're losing out on all kinds of benefits that you will have when you feed a more balanced type of raw food diet. But it is a strategy can be used for seizures, if you have a dog with seizures and put them on the raw food diet, high in fat and driven into ketosis, you very rarely see another seizure. You stay on that raw food diet, that's one of those biggest healing things I said for seizures is a raw food diet.

Dr. Will Falconer: So even without ketosis just having a raw food diet.

Thomas Sandberg: Yes, even the switch thing, but if you have a severe, like one that goes into seizures two or three times a day, then getting into ketosis first. What you do is to fast for 48 hours, so you just go into ketosis by fasting. Then start feeding it purely high fat diet for a little bit and then slowly go back to a normal, more balanced diet. Very, very good results when it comes to seizures, absolutely.

Dr. Will Falconer: Excellent. But even those guys you wouldn't keep on a ketogenic diet, you just do it initially and then get on a balance raw?

Thomas Sandberg: Yeah, I did in the beginning and I do admit that was one of those big proponents of the ketogenic diet. Also when I kept them on ketosis for too long, I feel like all was going backwards. Something wasn’t right and when thinking about it as a naturopath is like a highly, highly unnatural diet that dog ever eat that much fat 70 80%. It couldn't even figure that out in the wild, they wouldn't even eat it. So I always think about what is natural, what is natural, and then I go back to that. But as a strategy for chronic disease and other things, it could be, I see the benefit of it, but I'd like to have it induced by fasting instead of with food.

Dr. Will Falconer: I love it.

Thomas Sandberg: But you can keep it in ketosis with food for a short time. Because I've tried this not too many times, and I see this, especially dogs with cancer, if we can get him back on a balanced diet, they do much better. And that makes sense because that's what builds up the immune system, you know, homeostasis, are based on an unnatural diet. You got to get too close to nature as you can and that's feeding a more balanced diet, not the ketogenic diet. But it's very popular, some people keep the dogs on the ketogenic diet too as a cancer prevention thing. I don't think that's a good idea, I mean, that's me, that's me. I have friends that believe in it, so they are not going to like it and I said, well, they already know what I believe in.

I was much more into ketogenic diet before but now…I shouldn't say because I'm doing it myself, I go in and out of ketosis myself. But I think it's different for humans and because I go about it with how I feel. If it doesn't feel right, then I change things, we can’t do that with dogs. But it always comes back to nature and what is natural.

Dr. Will Falconer: I think that’s the key.

Thomas Sandberg: The problem with the whole thing we are dealing with, we have taken an animal out of an environment and with the ancestor and all they lived there for thousands of years in nature and you're taking them out. The gap now is so big from what they're designed to live in, and what we have created. That is what we need to do is narrow that gap and that's what I'm kind of working on, trying to create as closest… That's why I always want two dogs, I want a little pack. I call myself pack leaders, I get a lot of flack for that, I call myself a dog owner, I get a couple other flack for that. But I need to create this environment that are very similar to when they, you know, it’s…

Dr. Will Falconer: I think you said a huge thing that I don't want to skip over, which is that we always have an example to fall back on. Who's genetically most similar to the dog? It's the wolf. 99% of the mitochondrial genes are the same in both species. So we can always look to that and say, “Would a wolf ever eat a ketogenic diet for a long period of time?” Absolutely not, they wouldn't come across that much fat. So I've used that for years Tom to say, “Well, what would a wolf do, or what would a bobcat do?” You know in the wild if we are talking cats, and you are on the same page, so I appreciate that. We always have a reference.

Thomas Sandberg: Well, we evolved so fast with our, you know, but these animals haven't even caught up on 1% of that. So they’re still stuck in that old, you know in their carnivore, none of them have never evolved even close to an omnivore or anything like that, it is the dogs and the cats. But that's what they like to say, they like to say dogs are omnivores, you see it everywhere you go to. Any type of kibble manufacturers website they say dogs are omnivores and they say most veterinarians will say the same. And that justified, sort a little bit justifies, you know, feeding kibble, okay, you know that kibble is better for you and I than the dog, you really think about it. If you want to…no always thinking, why would nature do that? Because nature had the answer for most, you know.

Dr. Will Falconer: Exactly, thousands of years.

Thomas Sandberg: Yes. Even when it comes to healing, and modalities and remedies and stuff that have been out there for thousands of thousand years, they wouldn't be out there if it didn't work.

Dr. Will Falconer: Yes, yes, yes. Let's see if I've missed anything I wanted to ask you about. We've talked about the balance method, the big one, the bacteria we got handled. Oh, how about cost, there's a kind of a worry about this being a super expensive thing to do.

Thomas Sandberg: Yes, that's definitely one of these things that are out there especially for people that have never done it before. And in the beginning years, it's because you don't know what you're doing but there are ways around cost and you become smarter as you do this thing. Because you know what you're looking for and you can go into co-ops if you live in cities, and they can buy in, you know they buy in bulk and things like that, I don't live in a place like that. But what I purposely do is and probably the only little problem I have with what I'm doing, but I'm doing it for good reasons, is that I buy everything in a regular grocery store. I do not buy anything organic. I wish I could, I wish I could afford it, I know that, I think that would be better. But I think if I tell people, “Oh yeah, you can go to the grocery store”, and I would then go and buy everything organic, I am not truthful.

So I kind of wanted these Great Danes I have now and had before they always got the food from a regular grocery store. I know that's not the perfect meat but I wanted to prove that that still is much better than kibble and that makes it a little more affordable to people. Because I feel there are people out there that will never ever do that. They will feed organic, hundred percent organic and they can afford it no then can do it absolutely no problem.

Dr. Will Falconer: Sure.

Thomas Falconer: But I can get much more people on to raw food diet. I said it's okay to buy that food from a regular grocery store and they still going to do much, much better and I have proven that. My Danes lives so much longer, they don't get cancer and chronic disease or nothing, so I know it works. But I think it can balance that out a little bit, well not balance but counting… what do you call it when you kind of alleviate the damage some of that food can do to your dog by feeding supplements?

Not like minerals, because I think they probably lack a lot of minerals, I never tested any of that food. But I think that could be one way to limit any type of damage that food could maybe probably cause. You know, they are, I think a very strong immune system and think you can create that with that diet from meat from a grocery store. Also supplement with it that could kind of fight off any type of side effects from that. But I also think if you got perfectly organic food, I probably can get this dog to live longer.

Dr. Will Falconer: Aha. But I think that's a really interesting point. You have seen the animals just leave the kibble and get on grocery store based raw food diets and excel.

Thomas Sandberg: Absolute oh, my God, yeah, that's what I do. I never fed anything organic ever, and then they are doing fine. I mean, they live longer, they don't have these joint issues and other things, but they do supplement. And that is one of reason I supplement is because I don't buy the perfect food. But if they can afford it, I would absolutely encourage people to buy organic, but I think you can…I don’t know, many, many times better than kibble store food or store bought meat is but we are little different.

Dr. Will Falconer: Yes, yes. It's huge. Tom, I'd like to wrap up with you for this episode to have you tell our listeners about the phase three of your work and how they could get involved if they're so inclined.

Thomas Sandberg: Yes, phase three is to open a holistic first in the world that I know a holistic rescue and rehab center where I can actually show the world what I'm doing, case by case. I will rescue dogs, severely challenged health wise and I hope to take them from my shelters. Then these dogs will be scheduled to be euthanized, because there is no funds to heal them. Then nobody wants to adopt these dogs on facing thousands and thousands of vet bills immediately. So I will take these dogs out and will document everything I do with them day by day. We'll actually set up a live stream, and each dog will have their own web page.

Dr. Will Falconer: Wow.

Thomas Falconer: I would in detail, tell them exactly what they do, so people can mimic this and do it other places. And I will provide that service and helping them and I hoping my business have centers all over the world doing these things. Eventually they could be one person, rescue one dog at a time, that would be one and I will support them and all this. Inside the center, we create other entities that would fund the centers and not fully dependent on funding all the time. Because I know most of these nonprofit centers spend more time in raising funds than they take care of the dogs, because they are running out of money all the time. So I have some models and some ideas how we can do that with some breeding program.

I also have a big ambition of raising therapy dogs, raw fed therapy dogs that will last twice as long as regular dogs. You know when I get the right everything right and that's a difficult thing but I will start the Great Danes, things because they're good for dog. There is like a program going on like that, they're raising then for people that have balance issues. So they use Danes to support this so they can walk around and have a whole different life. But the sad thing it take two or three years to train these dogs and then they stay with them for maybe two or three years and then they're gone. The bond you create with a therapy dog is the most amazing bond because it changes your life. You know, I can walk around I can go places, I'm not dependent on others, my dog is helping me. This bond with any type of service dog, that happens. If I can extend the life or double the lifespan on the service dog, it will do such incredible thing to the owners and the one that they service and I just always wanted to do that.

But the problem is, is that almost on every one of these organizations there are people from the kibble companies sitting on the board. And there are clauses that they won’t accept raw fed dogs they cannot feed your dog, because it's such a threat to the person. Going to go back to this bacteria myth that you can get sick from raw food and stuff. So it doesn't happen, but there are therapy dogs out there that are raw fed, that is in my studies. I know they're doing it, but they probably don't tell whatever organization they're part of, and all that, I shouldn't probably say that, but they can't hear me. That's one of the things I would do and there will be another income source that you can support the center. I will have some supplements that could start doing things to support it. A big thing for me, and I think is one of the most amazing supplements out there are things you can give a dog for bacteria and virus is Colloidal Silver. We might talk about that at one point, but that's one of the things I'm using every single day.

So there are other things inside this center that I will use to secure the longevity of it. But the main thing is to show people what I do with these dogs and using the modalities that I've seen working over and over again. Because I can do what we’re doing now, I can talk about it all day long. People are going to say, “Oh that sounds credible. Oh, that's good”. But to actually see a dog coming out from a shelter. They're all you know, maybe have to carry the dog out, and then heal them back holistically, naturally, with food and other basic supplements. I'm only using things that are available everywhere in the world. It's not like anything they can’t get a hold of. Then maybe that will be more powerful than it is just talking about and writing about it. So that's the phase three and I am starting a campaign and what I will ask for is $2 from 2 million people. The reason I am trying to raise so much money is that I want to put a clinic in there. I'm working with… I don't know, have you heard of Marlene Seigel in Florida, she's a homeopathy girl, she is a kind of integrated veterinarian.

Dr. Will Falconer: I think so, the name sounds familiar.

Thomas Sandberg: Yes, she has been out there and we are working together she will put hopefully her first clinic if I can get this going, inside that center and she is more like a therapist. She is a genius when it comes to cancer and cats and dogs, she has done some incredible work. We testing different things right now they are maybe at one point talk about, but there are some really, really powerful supplements out there or botanicals. Even actually a drug out there that had been very, very effective in restoring very severe things. Severe things like MS in humans, and MS, there is no cure for MS.

Dr. Will Falconer: Right.

Thomas Sandberg: This particular drug has actually got people out of MS and it has no side effect. It is used in low doses, it is in the body for three or four hours goes out and the body has a reaction to it and produces endorphins and other things. Which is extremely healthy for the immune system, but that will probably take too long…

Dr. Will Falconer: Wow.

Thomas Sandberg: Yeah, it's so much interesting things out there that when you are researching and you dig in and dig in and dig in. But another little thing from my studies that I never ever thought about either. I learned so much from some of these people that get into my study and using things that I never heard of. So they share it with me and I said, “Wow, that fixed my dog”, they say, I never heard of it. Then I look into it and I start digging in and I see another story here, another story there, and I learn more from that than looking for things myself.

Dr. Will Falconer: Ah got you.

Thomas Sandberg: I mean, you'll probably always…if something works for something you get a little bit interested. Yeah?

Dr. Will Falconer: Exactly.

Thomas Sandberg: If you see it repeat itself a couple of times you say, “Wait a minute, there might be something to this”. Then you see more and then you suggest that maybe somebody that could benefit and they doing it and again you see it.

Dr. Will Falconer: Yes.

Thomas Falconer: So that happens a lot. That happens a lot with me, but it also happens the other way around. When I try and things and nothing happens and nothing happens and they happen over and over again and nothing happens. Then famous, famous things out there that everybody promotes for, you know, certain things, and I tested it and never seen any results at it. Then when you start looking at, where are you seeing these stories is always on the manufacturers website. And you start looking outside there and you don't see anything. So I'm very skeptical when it comes to any type of you know, critical feedback and things that are listed on the manufacturers website.

Dr. Will Falconer: Exactly, exactly.

Thomas Sandberg: But is still interested in testing things, it a big, big part of my study to test supplements.

Dr. Will Falconer: Yes, I love it and I think you're a true scientist with what you've just said. You're skeptical of things that come from the wrong sources and you’re open to ideas that you’ve never heard of, and so that's how a scientist has to work.

Thomas Falconer: Absolutely and that is what kills a lot of things too because people are “Oh no it's no science behind it”. Oh, I can't tell you how many times “your study is not scientific.” I know, it’s not supposed to be, it's observational study. Observing things and looking for trends that repeat itself. Which in my mind is actually science but no oh my gosh, I think I have called, I mean as an animal naturopath, I'm a quack in most people's mind. You know so well I…

Dr. Will Falconer: Go ahead.

Thomas Sandberg: No, but like we talked about I think we talked about it before we got on the air, we are on the side of truth, I know I'm on the side of truth. Because I've seen with raw food diet, I know it works and I know why it works because they he gave a dog or cat what the digestive system is designed for. The reaction to that is the body will restore itself, gain the balance and heal itself from whatever it is. Also have a really strong prevention type of function too so you don't get sick and if they get sick they recover. I mean I had dogs that get kennel cough, that is fine in two days, they are not given anything.

Dr. Will Falconer: Yes, no medicine.

Thomas Sandberg: No he would sample only the meat for two days and a little down, coughing a little bit but then two or three days it's gone in this raw fed dogs it happens many times.

Dr. Will Falconer: Yes, yes.

Thomas Sandberg: So the body really has the ability to heal itself. Yes, I mean its that they get that virus in there and build immunity with that is anything for kennel cough, but that's how you want the dog to get these things and be sick a little bit but you want him to recover with no medicine, at least no drugs.

Dr. Will Falconer: Yes, exactly. Well, Tom, where can people find you online?

Thomas Sandberg: Well, my main site [inaudible 1:06:57- 58] and listening and part of my study. I have so many of my study and people and half of them were probably already in my study, but listen to this thing. Is at longlivingpets.com and they can if they need to contact me personally can find me that way. So contact me on that, that would probably be the easiest one.

Dr. Will Falconer: Okay.

Thomas Falconer: But I am also on there, my consulting and all that is under the animalnaturopath.com, that for my consulting.

Dr. Will Falconer: Okay, yeah.

Thomas Sandberg: I'm trying to keep them separate, so the longlivingpets.com is the study, that's where people register for the study.

Dr. Will Falconer: Okay.

Thomas Sandberg: And there's some other information there too, the site is getting kind of old, but that's where they have the form to register if they want to be a part of the studies. No cost at all and there's only one update a year. So I had to make it as simple as possible so people don't feel like they're, “Oh my gosh, I got to go into this now?” it's just one once a year and the updates are easy.

Dr. Will Falconer: Beautiful, beautiful. So I'll have both of those links in the show notes, everyone, be sure to visit vitalanimal.com and look up our podcasts there, you'll see it on the top menu. When this goes to press, those links and more from Tom Sandberg will be in there. So Tom, I want to thank you and I think we've got more to talk about. So I'd love to think about a future episode on something where we go into a deep dive. Are you open to that?

Thomas Sandberg: Yes, absolutely. I think we could talk more about healing things, modalities we can use, there are you know, powerful things out there.

Dr. Will Falconer: Okay.

Thomas Sandberg: That I mean, some of them I probably can't talk about it on air, because there are things that you know, especially in the cancer part, I must be careful about that. But, I mean, you have your own line of supplements and things that I would love to look more into and admit I haven't looked into it yet. I heard of people, you know, over the years, that said that you have things that they think that I could get enrolled in and be a part of my protocol. So it's not like I don't know of it. But I think the community we are in that so small that we all need to work together and take the ego out. Because there's too many egos in here and too many opinions and too many. It's still I don't know, I wish I knew the percentage of people that fed raw. Do you have any? I think it's less than 5%, when you think about the whole world, not the world, let’s this keep it in United States, I don't know.

Dr. Will Falconer: Yeah, I don't know, either, Tom, it's a great question. We could maybe float a poll, people could answer a simple poll. But I don't know how you get a broad enough net to know that. I suspect it's a relatively vocal minority, you know, they're beating the drum for it because they get such good results. In my practice, they would happily leave the need to see me as a homeopathic vet after they started feeding raw because their animals just got so healthy. I didn't need to help them and I was happy to see that, you know. I want them to graduate and be on their own and keep those animals out of trouble, so yeah.

Thomas Sandberg: Yes, this is definitely not the moneymaker for the ones that want to make money on animals that's for sure. Yeah, I mean the last Dane I had was 13, had never ever been to the vet for anything, ever. So that's not the good…you know? You do understand, so and I and many others say the same and they never go to the vet for anything. I do bring him for blood tests and things like that just for part of my study to make sure everything is okay, but it's always okay.

Dr. Will Falconer: Yeah, well, thanks.

Thomas Falconer: Yeah, there is so many in popping into my mind but we can talk later, see if we can plan another one. Absolutely, I'm willing to do that. My main mission in life is to get as many dogs to eat the right food as possible and take the fear out from doing it.

Dr. Will Falconer: Yes, exactly.

Thomas Sandberg: I think and that whenever we can do to help with that because like I said, we do see the amazing results from it, which makes total sense.

Dr. Will Falconer: Yes.

Thomas Sandberg: Well, let's come up with something new, I mean, we haven't invented anything.

Dr. Will Falconer: Exactly.

Thomas Sandberg: That's the crazy part.

Dr. Will Falconer: We're just beating the drum.

Thomas Sandberg: You are calling raw a fad diet and then I have to smile. Then I know you're not very well informed because that's actually what they will start it as.

Dr. Will Falconer: A bad diet.

Thomas Sandberg: A convenience to cover.

Dr. Will Falconer: Well, thanks very much Tom. We will be talking in the future and we'll look for this episode to change a lot of minds for the better and animals to benefit in both longevity and health as a result of making the switch. Thanks very very much.

Thomas Sandberg: There is really no risk involved maybe the latest one: I’ve never seen a dog die from raw food diet ever. So if you don't like it, go back to kibble but take a a risk and just give it a try for a week and then I never seen anybody complain. People put the dog on a raw food diet for a week and never seen them go back to kibble unless they came into some financial thing or something but not…

Dr. Will Falconer: Not for health reasons.

Thomas Sandberg: No,

Dr. Will Falconer: Yes, beautiful. Thanks Tom.

Thomas Sandberg: Okay.